Tambura Tuning

[Djuroslav]

Can someone provide me with a reasonable explanation as to why a "G"-brac, or a "G"-prim is so frowned upon nowadays? (Jokirinaround, for example, wants to burn all of them at the next Tamburitza Extravaganza.)

[ZivilaHrvatska]

As a G-Prim player (for about 19 years now), I would like to know why as well! I don't ever think I will give it up for anything else! :D

Even though I own a few of those "other" instruments! :eek:

I think it is the best type of instrument for teaching small children who are just being introduced to the tamburitza.

Just my thoughts!

ZH ;)

[Aussie^Tamburas]

Gday Peoples,
I guess I should have some input into this topic because I started playing tambura on G-stim and moved to E Stim HVALA BOGU. When I was playing G-stim it didn't really introduce me into the world of tambura and everything had to be transposed into another key and it was harder to play coz of fingering. But when I started playing E stim it put me into my world as an artist into the world of tambura. Alot of melodies are made for E stim. G stim is mostly used for orchestras and folklore in Croatia but that is slowly dieing and moving to Estim thank god. Tambura music in the old days and mostly nowadays is made for the E Stim. All the greats plays E-stim. Name 1 great that plays G stim? Did Janika play G? Did Tumbas play G? Did Hrvoje Majic play G? Does Jerry play G? Do I really need to continue? I have alot more to write but all I have to say is the people that play G Stim do not understand the world of Music that they are missing out on.

catch yas

from aussie

PS. JOKIRINAROUND mate long time no here but pls when u do start the "G-Stim Great balls of fire" hehe can u video tape it and send me it coz that would really make my day hehe another good idea to save our rainforrests is to make toilet paper and fire would out of G-stim tambura hehe

LONG LIVE E-STIM

[jokirinaround]

Mostly I would just like to burn G- Prims.

They are the most irritating sound I've ever heard. If you have bad instrument then it's worse.

I have compnesated for it somewhat. I have tuned all the g-prims in our junior group to E-stim.

The prims are small for small childrens hands and they don't actually sound as bad.

Kind of a compromise

jka

[am]

I have both G and E instuments. In my opinion, if it is a good brac or bug you really cannot tell the difference on the "stim".
A prim on the other hand....
G is high pitched and twangy an E sounds more sexy and smooth.

Is't like cognac.
There is v.s.o.p. , and x.o. One is to drink, and the other is to enjoy. ;)

[saky]

Originally posted by Aussie^Tamburas:
Gday Peoples,
I guess I should have some input into this topic because I started playing tambura on G-stim and moved to E Stim HVALA BOGU... <cut>

word! ;) rekao si sve sto sam ja mislio napisati, samo na hrvatskom smile.gif

[Ivan_Petracic]

in some cases it has better sound. Just like in a musical piece a song will sound much prettier in a harder key than if it's in C major. I also grew up on G prim and i like it a lot, i am learning E prim and i play it every so often, in most cases i find it easier to play, plus it has a greater range than your standard G prim

[jokirinaround]

AM

That was a sexy reply. both that Ivo is lucky. ;)

jka

[R. Matijasec]

what exactly is the E tuning and the A tuning ?

is the E a minor third lower than the G and the A tuned a note higher, or is it something more complicated ?

[saky]

Originally posted by R. Matijasec:
what exactly is the E tuning and the A tuning ?

is the E a minor third lower than the G and the A tuned a note higher, or is it something more complicated ? to je to, nista kompliciranije, ako sam te ja dobro shvatio smile.gif pozdrav!

[jbtamburasi]

Just to add my "2 cents" on this subject. I would say the "g" prim has its place in this vast land of Tambura. However it most likely belongs in those large groups(if anywhere),in my opinion.When I first started playing(around 1971,yes I just dated myself),my father and uncle played each played "g" prim in our group.I have tapes of those practices and parties we would play for. Needless to say,I kept those for sentimental reasons only as both dad and uncle are long since passed. But on occasion,I'll play those tapes and can't belive how"twangy" and I would say even "tinny" those things sounded! I think the "g" brac(well made) still works well mixed in with the other"preferred" instruments in any size group.

[Pero Pavlovich]

Dear Djuroslav,

E-kontra and prim is the way to go. A-basprim is the way to go as well. For one thing, I believe they sound much better and have a little more punch. Also, by playing these tunings, you will be most compatible with tambura musicians both here and in Europe these days. The instruments you buy from Europe are designed with A tuning in mind. That D and G tuning is a product of this country anyway.

Heed the words of my friend JKA, stoke the fire.....and get ready to pitch another G brac in. Don't worry, there is plenty of room!

Take care,

Pero

[Aussie^Tamburas]

Gday Pero,
couldn't say it better myself. Estim is in power hehe. I wonder what janika would say if someone told him to play a G-bisernice hehe. Also Pero did u get a chance to read my email? I am waiting for your reply.

Thanks mate
catch ya
DUNDEE

[duka]

Pero,

I just wanted to let you know that G and D tunings are not a product of North America. Croatians were using this tuning over 100 years ago. It was the most popular tuning of the tambura brought to this continent. The tuning is still used over there in orchestras and even in schools. You'll never see the 5 or 6 piece bands using them, but they are still being made and used regularly. As for the question of which is better, it's your preference. smile.gif

[Pero Pavlovich]

Hey Aussie and Duka,
Yes, I received your email and sent you a reply. I hope all is well. As far as the tuning goes, I guess Duka must be correct when he says that G tuning came from Croatia and not here in the United States or North America for that matter. I really don't portend to be a tuning Nazi or anything but I know how wonderful Radio Television Novi Sad sounds with that structure. I know that G was predominantly played here during the 40s through 70s but the tuning of Vojvodina seems to have been to E and A for as far back as far as I can identify and it seems as though most of the smaller tambura groups here in the US have made it their choice of tuning as well. I know Jerry has been playing it since the 70s as has myself, and members of Lira. JKA has been a steady believer in that tuning as well for equally as long. Again, it seems to be the tuning of choice for todays tambura musicians. There must be some reason for this.

Take care all,

Pero iz Detroit

[Aussie^Tamburas]

Gday Pero,
sorry mate I didn't get your email but in answer to why people use E stim because I found all songs fall better with the E key, the placement of fingers on the fret board

ok catch ya

[Petar]

Stvar je vrlo jednostavna. A-E stim bolje zvuci. G-D stim je samo za orkestre, makar bi i oni trebali prijeci na A-E stim. Pocetniku je lakse savladati G-D stim, ali kasnije ima velikih problema s prebacivanjem na A-E stim, pogotovo u citanju nota. Naime, ja jos uvijek sviram G stim, ali jedva cekam da se prebacim na A. Problem je financijske prirode. Ispricavam se sto ne pisem na engleskom, ali koga zanima sto pise nek prevadja.

[saky]

Originally posted by Petar:
Stvar je vrlo jednostavna. A-E stim bolje zvuci. G-D stim je samo za orkestre, makar bi i oni trebali prijeci na A-E stim. Pocetniku je lakse savladati G-D stim, ali kasnije ima velikih problema s prebacivanjem na A-E stim, pogotovo u citanju nota. Naime, ja jos uvijek sviram G stim, ali jedva cekam da se prebacim na A. Problem je financijske prirode. Ispricavam se sto ne pisem na engleskom, ali koga zanima sto pise nek prevadja. je imas pravo, malo se je tesko priviknuti na e stim, pogotovo sto se nota tice, ali vjerujem da bi nakon mjesec-dva vec trebalo glatko ici...sto se basa tice, mislim da je vise-manje svejedno dali sviras g ili a stim...moj berdas isto svira g stim i planira se prebaciti na a, ali nikud mu se ne zuri ;) ...kako mislis da je problem financijske prirode, jel to u vezi zica ili?...moj berdas je narucio a komplet od franjica iz zupanje za 200kn..pozdrav!

[am]

moj berdas isto svira g stim i planira se prebaciti na a, ali nikud mu se ne zuri ...kako mislis da je problem financijske prirode, jel to u vezi zica ili?...moj berdas je narucio a komplet od franjica iz zupanje za 200kn..pozdrav!
Putting A strings on a G bas is not always a good idea. You will be putting a lot of tension on the neck and body which may affect the instrument, since 'A' is a whole step higher than 'G'. Hopefully nothing will happen, but the higher stress may cause cracks and buckling.

Sorry for the English, but I want to make sure that I get my point across correctly.

If you need a translation, let me know, I'll try my best. :D

am

[saky]

Originally posted by am:
Putting A strings on a G bas is not always a good idea. You will be putting a lot of tension on the neck and body which may affect the instrument, since 'A' is a whole step higher than 'G'. Hopefully nothing will happen, but the higher stress may cause cracks and buckling.

Sorry for the English, but I want to make sure that I get my point across correctly.

If you need a translation, let me know, I'll try my best. :D

am hehe ma razumijem ja sve, i mogao bih pisati na engleskom, ali bi mi trebalo duplo vise vremena ;) ...ovako je najbolje, ja razumijem tebe, ti mene i super smile.gif ...eto, bas jucer na probi mu je pukla zica, pa smo stavili cijeli a komplet...probao je svirati na a stimu i rekao je da ce mu trebati puno vremena da se privikne, pa se vratio na g stim, i zasad nema nikakvih problema...vidjet cemo kasnije smile.gif ..puno pozdrava!

[Petar]

Sto se tice financijske prirode, mislio sam na to da moram kupiti novi bas, a time cu se prebaciti na A stim. Do tada cu svirati G stim jer mi je tako lakse. Osim toga puno duze izdrze zice kad su nastimane na G. Ja isto nabavljam zice za bas od Franica iz Zupanje.

[dp]

I'm sorry - If you put a G bass next to an A-bass, and both of them were missing strings, which one would be A???... the cooler looking bass??.. tongue.gif

If you match the tension of the A-strings(...i.e gauge of the string) to the tension of a set of G-strings - the two basses would have the same sound. The problem is people taking string Gauges set for a-bass and tuning them down to a g-bass. I would imagine that would sound pretty dead.

On G- bugarija I use the following gauges:
(13 = .013mm)
13-17-27-36

If I were playing an E bug, I would change 3 of the four strings to a lighter set so that I would simular tension on both sets.


To me the only difference here is your string tension choise and the prefered key that you play most of your songs in.........

[Fricijo]

DP - that was spoken like a true engineer!

Mathematically speaking, there should actually be 'slight' difference in the fret spacing between 'G' and 'A' tuned instruments. This is difference can be treated as negligible due to the limitations of the human ear and the hand crafting of our instruments.

As far as increased string tension goes, I agree with DP. If you choose not to lessen the gauge of the strings used and you can SUCCESSFULLY tune them up one whole step (without breaking) there will be increased tension. However, using lighter gauge strings (tuned up)will result in equivalent tensions. Not to mention the fact that 'A' tuned instruments simply sound better!!!

[am]

there should actually be 'slight' difference in the fret spacing between 'G' and 'A' tuned instruments. This is difference can be treated as negligible due to the limitations of the human ear and the hand crafting of our instruments.
From what I was taught, the reason for the fret spacing as well as the neck length is because of the tension from the strings on the body. A great example is the difference in size between a 'G', 'D', 'E', and 'A' prim. Of course the stress factor isn't the same since the strings are a much thinner than that of a bass (Even on a celo, the 'A' neck is longer than a 'G', and that is only a whole step up)

As far as damaging the instrument... well I know this first hand. Fricio, did you forget what happened to my bass?? Someone borrowed it, and decided to tune it up to an 'A'. This not only broke the 'G' string but also cracked the back from the pressure from the bridge and sound post. I realize that a berda is built strong, but I really don't think it is ideal to mess with an instrument that was meant to be played in a certian key.


The problem is people taking string Gauges set for a-bass and tuning them down to a g-bass. I would imagine that would sound pretty dead.
I agree!!!

As far as gauage goes....I work in IT. I ain't no engineer!!! ;)

[Fricijo]

Of course I remember what happened to your bass! I still can't believe that they did what they did. (You know how I feel about that entire situation) That's why I included the following statement:
If you choose not to lessen the gauge of the strings used and you can SUCCESSFULLY tune them up one whole step (without breaking) there will be increased tension. However, using lighter gauge strings (tuned up)will result in equivalent tensions If you tune strings to be played at tones that they were not intended to be played at, the results will be unfavorable - either through bad tonality or inreased pressure/tension on the instrument.

For fear of sounding like an even bigger geek, I'm going to get bak to work! :D

[am]

Geeks.....
Aren't we all????

:D ;)

[Momak]

How all this controversy got started, I don't know. As for 'G' prims, I've come to detest them for their 'tinky' sound. The 'E' prims have the tonal advantage. What I find interesting is the tuning in regards to bands vs. orchestras quoted here by Petar. I've been playing with 'G' tuning all along and have been a member of DTO the past five years. From my observations with the orchestra we have mixed tuning (G-D and A-E)due to the instruments we have (European and US made)and individual tuning preferences (yes, we have a choice-unlike some other groups:). I could switch to the 'A' tuning on my brac (by Djuretic) however I'm satisfied with it's tone at the present.
Bok,
Danijel

Originally posted by Petar:
Stvar je vrlo jednostavna. A-E stim bolje zvuci. G-D stim je samo za orkestre, makar bi i oni trebali prijeci na A-E stim. Pocetniku je lakse savladati G-D stim, ali kasnije ima velikih problema s prebacivanjem na A-E stim, pogotovo u citanju nota. Naime, ja jos uvijek sviram G stim, ali jedva cekam da se prebacim na A. Problem je financijske prirode. Ispricavam se sto ne pisem na engleskom, ali koga zanima sto pise nek prevadja.

[branko]

About tuning,

Eastern Croatia, Vojvodina, Banat and Backa and Srijem have always tuned E H Fis Cis for prim and A E H Fis
for cello bass and basprim, kontra was always
E H Gis E.
Western Croatia was straight G D A E for prim
brac cello and bass.It's much easier to teach when all the tamburasi are using the same tuning.
Some groups have D bisernica tuned D A E H but the music is written transposed, so the instrument is treated as being G D A E tuning.
They call this transposed in G and it is commonly used in western Croatia. The idea is simple, if you can play a G D A E instrument you can switch over to a D A E H tuning without having to learn your geography again.It's a smart idea that is not
practiced in North America. There is also an istrument called celovic tuned D A E H same as D bisernica and the scores are written in much the same way for it.Sounds complicated? It's not.
I have a lot of teaching material in Croatian that
explains it in detail, if anyone is interested, just ask.The key point here is simplicity when it comes to teaching kids. G stim is better for another reason. Notes do not appear in the basement as they do for E prim. Most of the stuff is on the staves.Sinisa Leopold renamed srijemski
stim to Slavonske Tambure in his book "Tambura u Hrvata". Srijemski stim (tuning) is A E H Fis and E H Fis Cis as mentioned above.
Which system is better?
Well depends what key you play your music in.
If you are going to play stuff in G, sure, it's simpler to play a G bisernica and brac.
On the other hand, if you play i E and H, then E prim is your better choice.
Why? That's another story...

Uz srdačan pozdrav!

Branko Pahanić branko.pahanic@on.aibn.com

[Aussie^Tamburas]

Gday Branko,
my Australian Academy of Tambura is only going to teach in E stim. I feel that the tone quality is better and sounds more professional. I have 2 kids coming from an orch. which is G stim I will teach them a bit on G but they will buy new instruments E-stim and play them. Imagine playing Picikato Waltz on Gstim it would sound very thin and empty. I am trying to change all of Gstim to Estim in Australia. Being a Slavonac hehe Srijemski all the way hehe ;) .

catch yas
Dundee

[branko]

My experience is like this, if you have a good quality instrument, it does not matter how you tune it, it will sound good in any key. On the other hand poor quality instrument only sounds good when you play open strings. Great majority of braces and prims made in Canada and USA over the last 50 years does not have the authentic Croatian sound, they sound thick and mandoline like and if you use a sort pick it adds this awfull pick slap that makes the instruments sound even worse. Same goes for braces, they sound more like a guitar then a brac.
Rune number one is hardware ( the instrument) has to be up to snuff. Another thing, the frets have to be staples not cut in type. The old country frets have a much lower profile and are easy to play when you play like Jerry and Peter.
No resistance when you slide, much sharper sound because they are made of 0.8mm steel, rather then brass and nickel.They produve this famous sharp testosterone sound that our boys like to emulate and girls like to listen to.
I can show you five guys playing G system first and then A system, using good quality instruments
you put on a blindfold, and will not be able to tell the difference on which tamburas they are playing.Take a look at Kenny Kosovec who has an adult orchestra in Detroit MI. They play 100 A tuning almost, and sound great for two reasons.
Reason #1 i Kenny, he is the best there is, the best kept seecret in USA hi is litterate, refined,passionate, smooth, original, and did I miss anything? yes and good on all the instruments, I am sure he would sound just as good on G tamburas. Let's ask him. I still have to send him some picks.

Branko Pahanić
CAnada

[dp]

Bok Branko,
Nice posting, although I have a question about the following statement.

Originally posted by Branko:
Another thing, the frets have to be staples not cut in type. The old country frets have a much lower profile and are easy to play when you play like Jerry and Peter.
I've had this discussion with many people including Lado K. and other tamburasi. If you created a "cut in type" of fret that had the same radius and profile like the staple type, there will be no difference in ease of playing and sound. I have yet to prove this, but I guaratee that a cut-in type of fret like this would stay in place much longer than a staple fret. Possibly the only problem would be the width left on the hard wood fret board on each side of the fret. Most staple frets usually leave about 2-2.5 mm of gap to the outside of the board.

I really have no knowledge of tambura making, but I guess I'm questioning this issue.

-dp

[Aussie^Tamburas]

Gday,
1 of the guys in my band is using a basprim with cut in frets. Its made in Croatia. the majstor that made it is GILG, SISAK.

catch yas

[dp]

my first bugarija was a Gilg (Sisak). It had staple frets, and was characteristic of it's purple/burgandy color. Its was good for about 10 years, than the body warped up about 1/2 inch.

[vankuver]

Zagorec, your bug is warped because you gave it one too many gemists. Next time, namazi malo domace rakije i sve ce biti u redu.

tongue.gif

[dp]

e! to bi bio pravi lijek :D

[Tominellay]

Hi, Branko,
Our St. Anthony's Orchestra was founded by Josip Bachmann, who was from Osijek, one of the original members of the Pajo Kolaric ensemble there. He taught us on E bisernica, A brac, E brac, A celo, E bugarija, A berda. We are a transposing orchestra: our E instruments are read as D, and our A instruments are read as G. So, we sound one full step higher than we read, for all instruments. Mr. Bachmann explained that in Osijek it was perceived that the instruments had superior tone at the higher pitch; but so much musical literature existed that was written for instruments in D and G tuning, it made sense to tune "up" and transpose.... Consider compositions in flat key signatures that are scored for D and G instruments; that concert piece written in F major sounds better (and falls more nicely on the fretboard) in G major, when the instruments are tuned E and A. "Dalmatian Melodies" from the old Balalaika Serenade recording is a good example of this. Anyhow, Los Angeles persists in transposing........ An exception to all the above: I think that the old kajkavian songs really sound best on those G bracs with all the double strings........I do not subscribe to Sinisa Leopold's renaming of the Srijemski system.......You're right in your praise of Kenny, of course.......and send me some picks!
Tominellay

[Djuroslav]

Branko & Tominellay,

You guys forgot to mention Kenny's best kept secret... his SINGING ability! :D

[ken kosovec]

Branko, thank you for the kind words. First, there is no substitute for an instrument with good tone no matter where it was made. I prefer the sound of the European instuments made in Slavonija and Vojvodina for there rich sweet sound, but it does not make all of them good. Many American made instruments have excellent tone but it is not the sound myself and most tamburasi are looking for today.An Old Groshel brach can sometimes sound very "European" if it is tuned to"A" and is a good instrument to begin with

[Clive]

I some cases you're right. When it comes to prims. I have a Krklec G prim and i think it's amazing. Every other G tambura i've tried doesn't compare anywhere near as this one. But i've found that basprims and Kontra's are not well made here in North America. (no offence to you guys who make them). I just got a kick ass basprim from Marinko it has amazing sound and it looks jako najc too. Also i have one of his Kontra's it's alright but our folklore group has a Kontra made by Marinko that's better.

I dunno what they do in Europe, do they take more time in making tambure? some special secret no one knows about. You just cant replace quality like that.

[Tominellay]

Hi, Ivan,
I wouldn't say that the quality of the European-made instrument is better than the quality of the North American product. Rather, the instrument makers seem to have different goals........

[Šavor]

I have to agree with Clive.

Tambure from Croatia are far superior in quality to their North American counterparts. Again, this isn't a slam against North American tambura makers, its just that they will never match the quality of tambure made in Croatia.

Hey Clive, how long ago did you get your basprim from Marinko? How is it?

[branko]

I guess playing tambura is like baking gibanica.
You have to have the right stuff, make sure it's
authentic because that's what it's all about.
I like some vanilla extract in the orahi for gibanica, my mom who just turned 80 does not agree.She tells me vanilla belongs in sladoled.
(ice cream). There are a lot of good instruments in Canada and USA, most were made back home. Our
bassprim player Goran is selling his Bocan, I am so sad. He wants to quit playing all together.
Kenny, will you talk to him, please.
I have to tell you about a prim I got as a Christmass present a few years ago. It was made by
our basprim player Josip Komesarovic who went back to Croatia for some personal reasons. ŽENA.
Hi didn't finish it completely so Stjepan Martinko
put the frets on 0.8mm round steel staple frets.
SO the instrument was built by two people. I call it BAZOOKA. When I play it I must wear an ear plug in my right ear, that's how loud it is.
I can't play very well so that's probably another reason for the ear plug. I would like to post a picture on the web sou you all can see it.

Branko
Canada

[branko]

Hi dp

About the fret profile, mandoline frets are the smallest you can buy and they are about 1.2mm in height instelled which is about 30% higher then
staples. With staples your bridge can be lower therfore strings are lower and with lower strings
speed is improved as well as wear and tear on your
prsti. I sent mandoline frets to Željko Kos in Pitomačа when he built several instruments for Sveti Juraj in the mid nineties. They were better
from the stuff he was using before, but not better
from round steel frets.
Branko
Canada

[branko]

What's your address Tominallay I will send you some samples to try. They are not rog picks they are made out of Delrin using a five step machining process.
If anyone else would like to try them, please post
your address, the picks are FREEEEEEEEEEEEE.

Branko

[branko]

Hi Tominellay

You are right about the A and E instruments sounding brighter. As far as using G and D instruments and treating them as A and E that's a very clever simple way to use the old arrangements
and play them on Srijemski Štim without having to transpose. I did that with a group in Mississauga for four years and it is labour intensive to do it. The sample picks are on the way!

Have a nice day

Branko

[Clive]

Branko i would like to try them

can you get me a brac and/or prim pick

i'll pm you info

[branko]

Hi Clive

Send me your mailing address.


branko.pahanic@on.aibn.com

[Aussie^Tamburas]

Gday Branko,
I would love to try the new picks. I need 1 for prim, 2 for basprim, 1 for kontra and 1 for berda. If you could please send them to me. Thanks mate.

Just like to see if its better then the ALL MIGHTY ROG hehe ;) .

[Tominellay]

Branko,

Thanks!
I've decided to take up tamburica.......

Tominellay

[saky]

Originally posted by branko:
...Send me your mailing address...

branko.pahanic@on.aibn.com jel saljes u Hrvatsku? :D :D

[branko]

Dragi prijatelju,

Da stvar bude bolja dolazim u Hrvatsku krajem ovog mjeseca, i zaista sam oduševljen.
Naš KUD Hrvatski Narodni Dom dolazi na turneju
Slavonijom i Jadranom. Nakon turneje vraćam se u
svoje rodno mjesto Draganići gdje ću vjerojatno
provesti oko dva tjedna.U to vrijeme posjetiti ću svoje prijatelje graditelje tambura Franju Šuntešica u Sisku i Željka
Kosa u Pitomači. Reci mi koliko trzalica hoćeš da ti ponesem, i otprilike koje veličine.U isto vrijeme donijeti ću ti uzorke žica napravljene od američkog čelika.

Primi puno srdačnih pozdrava iz Kanade

Branko Pahanić

[branko]

Hi my friend from down under,

Please post your address so I can send you samples.


Sincelely

Branko

[Aussie^Tamburas]

Gday branko,
I have sent you my address but I also need to send you the measure ments of the pics and the widths.

ok catch mate.
Dundee

[Clive]

also our berdas, you might remember him Branko, Mark Bajac, he has one of yoru picks from long ago, he likes it except it's to wide, i'll ask him if i he wants a new one, if so i think he'd want it not so wide and a little longer

[branko]

Ask him to messure it and post the dimensions,
I will try to make one for him.

[Clive]

yeah i told him yesterday, but knowing him he'll forget, i'll remind him to get it done asap.