Split-string Trill

[George Medakovich]

I spent a lot of effort trying to learn how to effectively use what
I know as the "split string trill", as exemplified by Charlie Smilinich
(Balkan Serenaders of Tonawanda, NY).

Occasionally in the past I have run into people who have had very
strong feelings about this kind of ornamentation. (Amazingly,
people have strong feelings about playing styles!)

My question is, do you use this technique in your playing and do you
have any specific way that you use it/teach it? Does anyone know any
of the history of the use of various ornamentation techniques in
tamburica playing, in comparison to, say, mandolin techniques?

George

[Clive]

Hi George, another great topic!

I personally am a split-string addict. It's a more common technique in the Panonian music like slavonija. As for styles, each region has it's own styles. You wont see someone doing split strings and trills in Dalmacija, it's just not the style. I specifically use it for slavonian styles and very very rarely for other styles. As for teaching it. I really dont teach it. I do have students i teach tambura to but this is an advanced technique and they're still on the basics. If i do teach them one day it will be under the knowledge that this isn't common tambura practice for folklore (which i teach).

As for the history part, i'll leave this for the more experienced tamburasi on here. :D

[George Medakovich]

this isn't common tambura practice for folklore

Thanks for your reply, Clive. Could you elaborate on this?

George

[perica]

George,

Many of the old time Prim players split their strings. Ilija Miskovic
and Vaso Bukvic were good examples of this method. Many bugarija
players also use this method of playing to get a fuller chord out of
their 3-tone bugarijas.


Perica

[Clive]

Hi George, sorry for the late response.


Over the years i've come to realize that Croatian folklore isn't as easy it sounds. You hear melodies that are simple and catchy but you may not know the history behind them.

I can't give you the origin of split string playing but I can tell you that it is not a part of croatian folklore. Many people make the mistake of assuming that split string is a trill. It's not. I'm sure you all know what a trill is so i wont go into explanation.

Croatian foklore has a set of unwritten rules to it. For example, it's chord structure is fairly simple and basic compared to that of lets say the gypsy's. Let say an example is the song "Caj Ciro" or "Aj'd Na Livo". The chord structure for those songs would allow your 3 common chords. I IV and V (Tonic, Sub-dominant and dominant). Now maybe a tambura band might look at this song and find out they can throw in a quick minor or diminished chord to make it sound "cool". This breaks the rules of croatian folkore. I was told by HRT Director Sinisa Leopold that Diminished chords are not a part of folklore.

Graned other regions up north such as Medimurje have many songs in minor keys but even these can be played without diminished chords (if the chords are written out properly).

As for split strings, it's most common in songs from the Panonija region (slavonija, Baranja). I have yet to recieve a piece of Folklore music that requires me to play split string as a part of it's arrangement. It's simply not the style. But it is common to have grace notes and trills in this type of music to liven it up. I try to enforce this in my students when teaching them. Granted, they're still too young to play advanced pieces but I have two mindsets of playing. Folkore, and tambura.

But as I said personally when playing tambura tunes that aren't folklore (like just tamburasi jammin to some tunes) i'll use split strings for fun.

[perica]

Clive,

Great response! When teaching the young ones, I think it is best
to stick to the basics, and wait untill later for the harder items.
As for the folklore aspect, don't bog the students down too much
with the folklore aspect. I don't play Serbian, Croatian, Macedonian,
or Gypsy. I play music. Most of the people I play for are not "Novi
Dosli".
If you look at the guitar, there are many great players. Zappa,
Segovia, Django, too many to mention. They all played their own
style. One cannot say that one played correctly, and all the others
were wrong. The same goes for Tambura. Gerry Grcevic and his
father, Joe, played two totally diferent styles. Can you say that one
of them played wrong? This is the beautiful thing about our music.
If we teach the kids starting out to all play one style, we run the
risk of "musical cloning".
Here's a test. When in Reno, stand outside any hospitality
room and when a group starts playing, try and guess which group
it is after the first measure of the song. Probably can't do it. You can
with Yeseta because they have their own unique style.
Getting back on folklore. Preservation of culture. Ask you parents
what songs they sang and listened to. Your grandparents. Lots of
great new songs are coming out now. It's a shame that over a 100
years of music is going by the wayside.

Perica

[jaygriz]

The "split string trill," or more generally, "split string ornamentation" has been used by many great lead players on brac or prim. It creates a moment of dissonance as the two notes involved are usually a half-step or whole-step apart. Masterful musicians know how to use moments of tension to get the attention of listeners who have become "comfortable' with what they are hearing. This device, when mastered, can be successfully used to this end.

Depending on how fast the tamburas moves his pick across the strings, split string ornaments can sound like a trill (alternating between two notes) or a moment of dissonance (the polyphony of two close-together notes). The "setup" of your prim or brac, along with your level of skill, will determine how readily you can achieve this sound. Having a wider distance between your doubled string at the nut & bridge will make it easier to grab both notes and get good tone.

In discussing the historical or folkloric origin of this and other forms of ornamentation, I think it's important to understand that the "mother of invention" with regard to ornamentation in balkan folk music is, in the vast majority of cases, the "inventor's" mimicry of other instruments - often from neighboring cultures. I can think of a lot of examples of such mimicry, and they are best conveyed with an instrument in hand. One would be the accordion's ability to repeat notes with the thumb while intermittently playing melodies with the other fingers. This mimics the way a gajde "whips" back to a given note. There are other examples of mimicry between violins, tamburas, frulas, gajdes, kavals - you name it!

Given these goings-on I think you could make the argument that a given form of ornamentation is or isn't "folklore." Personally, I wouldn't bother either way. At what level of "purity" do you draw the bounds of a given culture's music? It's a "grey area", and I'm okay with that.

Nice to talk about music on here!

[morovich]

Over the years, I have heard a few tambura players use this technique, unfortunately, most of whom use it WAAAAAAY too much (in every song) and for these tamburasi, this technique became a signature sound especially in those bands where there was just one lead tambura (brac or bisernica).

The only musicians in Europe I ever heard doing this was some of the Gypsy musicians; but they however were using a LOT of interesting picking and fingering techniques and didn't limit themselves to just this one!



As far as folklore goes, I have rarely heard Croatian rural musicians do this. I have heard a lot of Bulgarian and Macedonian tambura players and have not heard them do it in order to "mimic" the sound of gajde, but like their Croatian counterparts will use droning techniques instead or flipping between the melody and drone note to mimic the technique of the gajde say in 7/8 (1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8) hitting the drone note on 2,3,5,6 and 8 and the melody on the pulse beat 1,4 and 7.

My advice to anyone wanting to split notes is to limit it to specific phrases in a few songs to add texture and a bit of dissonance and not apply it to your general playing style.

[RIKI]

Im gonna have to agree with you Mr Morovich. You've never heard anyone in Croatia besides gypsies split strings? Havent you ever heard of Antun "Tuca" Nikolic from Slavonski Becari. The king of Slavonija style Tambura. The majority of primasi from Slavonija use this technique a lot. Open your ears buddy!

[Clive]

I would just like to clarify that i'm not saying that everyone has to have a certain style of playing and that everything else is wrong. I'm just pointing out in specific cases of Croatian folklore where certain styles are not to be played. This isn't stuff i have chosen to abide by, it's folklore. If you ever get a chance to speak with Director Sinisa Leopold, he'll explain to you what is Croatian folklore in detail, that is what he does for a living (among other musical endeavours).

Perica while i agree with your first comment I have to object to your next one. There is a clearly defined musical boundry here in Canada. We do not play all types of music, we stick to our own. It's what we know best and what we like. I'm not trying to offend anyone who plays other nationality music but from years of experience in the field of Croatian music not only folklore but all aspects. There are styles that belong and dont belong.

Griz. I wasn't inferring that split-string is a croatian folkloric style of playing. I dont know the history of that ornamentation. I was just explaining how it is not a part of Croatian folklore, though it is very common in today's tambura bands from back home.

[George Medakovich]

Oh, great! This thread really came alive!

I am familiar with Clive's point of view from my brief experience
with the Duquesne University Tamburitzans in the early 1970's.
In my "native" playing style, which is mostly a copy of the previous generation
from the Western New York, along with the old Banat Tamburitza Orchestra,
I am (or aspire to be) a heavy user of this kind of ornamentation. I don't think
of it as something that I use to "spice" individual pieces, it's more of an
integral way that I hear the music in my head - it is a core part of my own
playing style.

It would be interesting to hear more about how Croatian Folklore is defined and
maintained - it sounds like a cultural preservation orientation. I'm sure many of
us here are interested in this aspect of our music, at the same time we may also
be adamant about being authentic to our own personal experience, wherever
we find ourselves. I'd love to hear what some of the other lurking academic
types would have to say on this (Mark? Richard?)

George

[Clive]

When arranging music for croatian folklore there are some guidelines that should be followed. This might limit some music arrangers on their creativity but even simple melody's can be made to sound amazing.

Some of the things to avoid in croatian folklore arrangements

-split strings notes
-diminished chords
-bas players playing on off beats

these are simple ornamentation that makes the music sound more fun and lively but they should be avoided in aspects. Those ideas mentioned above are rudament but then you have to look at styles of different regions. When looking at lets say the Jadranska zona (adriatic zone), you will find simple melodies without lets say a run on a scale to finish a phrase. But what you will find is a different type of style. For ornamentation its common to see arpegiated notes such as in the region of Boka kotarska, also you'll find triplets are also common in arrangements from the coastal regions.

Its small things like this that musicians have to notice and respect because that's how the music was composed. There are plenty more examples I could give but i'll keep it simple

[morovich]

Riki,
Maybe we are talking about two different things here. When I was talking about was when playing say your double string hitting one of the strings on a whole tone and the other string another half or microtone either below or above to create a dissonance. Tuca rarely, if ever does that.

[Clive]

Morovich, you're correct.

I have rarely heard Tuca play split string. Infact I can't even recall a single song where he does and i've heard a lot of songs by Slavonski Becari.

Riki, a good example of split string would be Janika balaz. He played split-string quite often. The first thing that comes to mind:

Kad Zaigra Srce U Primasa

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FABIiKuu9SM

[perica]

Clive,

Who is Tuca?

Perica

[George Medakovich]

See RIKI's post from 9/1.

A lot of old people have used this style of ornamentation so it must have
come from somewhere, perhaps not Slavonia. At any rate, the style I
like to imitate is more from Tonawanda, NY.
I agree that it can be a very abrassive sound, but I think that when it
is done gracefully it really sweetens the music, like a harpsichord.
Accordian players have some similar tricks - instead of playing the
ornamental notes separately they crush them together. You can
really hear it in some of the Romanian accordian playing, but it's also
there in Serbian and Bulgarian. Perhaps this is an influence?

George

[perica]

Clive,

"There are styles that belong and don't belong". That's an
opinion. I wish I were an expert when I was 24 yrs. old. The older you
get, the less you'll realize you know.


Perica

[morovich]

To answer your question Perica, Antun Nikolic-Tuca is an amazing tambura player and composer/arranger and is the backbone, if not founder of Slavonski Becari, who in my opinion really gave tambura music a huge surge in popularity in the late 1970's when they worked closely with Krunoslav Slabinac - Kico. I will venture to say that he had a lot of influence on the playing style of some very prominent American tamburasi as well.

New York comes to mind when you talk about splitting strings. Some 20 plus years ago I heard a tambura player from the New York Buffalo area that did it in almost every song. He was about my age or a little older...I think his name is Renic. I haven't heard him play for a number of years now.
JM

PS You are right, the more I learn about this music, the more I realize I know nothing!

[horsovec]

Clive,

I've got to contest your claim that you need to avoid "bas players playing on off beats" in folklore arrangements.
I can point out countless examples where bas players play on the on and off beats in any given measure in traditional folklore arrangements, by such experts as Potocnik and Leopold.

Quite frankly, I would find it hard to find any arrangement where the bas player didn't ever hit on an off beat. Are you trying to say that in a 2/4 arrangment, for instance, that the bas can only hit on the 1 and the 2 beats, but never the "+" beats? What about 1, +, 2, + or 1, 2, +? Or, for instance, that in 4/4, the bas can only hit on the 1 and the 3, but never the 2 or the 4? I've seen measures in 4/4 in traditional folklore where the bas hits on 1, 3, 4 or 1, 2, 3, 4. Haven't you??

[Clive]

Dave

From the best of my knowledge. I have not seen berde players hitting off beats in tradition croatian folklore. Do you have any examples? I have no problem being proved wrong. I've been going to croatian seminars with Sinisa for years. All the folklore music he presented us with was as traditional as i gets. I'll check some of my arrangements at home. We've a lot of Potocnik (all 3 of them), Bradic and Leopold. If i come across any examples of bas on off beats i'll post.

Sorry Dave I wanted to clarify my point more. Sorry if this is out of order, i just realized what you were getting at and i'm editing my post. Yes it's common to see a bas player play on the + beat. You will usually see this when a bas has a run so maybe instead of 2 quarter notes they arrangement will call for 4 eighth notes, this is common. But i'm say strictly I've never seen a bas player hit on the offbeat so in 2/4 time i've never seen them hit on + beats consecutively. A good example is in Otrov's recording of Slavonsko kolo on Na Gazi CD. Forgive me i dont know the name of the song in the splet but 2nd time through when you play it you hit 4 or 5 offbeats on + in a row. Granted it sounds awesome but i've never ever seen that in a folklore arrangement. Those specific patterns which are prominent in today's tambura bands are not found in folklore arrangements from what i've experienced and i've been been involved with folkore since the age of 7.

Actually 1 good example just came to mind about a rare off beat occasion. It occurs in the song Todore from Baranja. In one part both kontra and bas play on beat 1 and then on the + of beat 2 then + of 1 and then right on 2.

1........+........2........+........1........+.... ....2........+
hit.........................hit................hit .......hit.......

and there are 2 bars of that. That's one of the few cases of offbeats that are common. But When i see something like the bas hitting:


1........+........2........+........1........+.... ....2........+........1........+........2........+ ........1........+........2........+
hit......hit................hit................hit ................hit.................hit........... ....hit........hit................hit........

this is the "uncommon" i speak of.

sorry for the formatting. I tried just leaving spaces but the formatting just puts everything one after the other if there's more than 1 space

[perica]

Clive,

Hey Clive! Don't get so hung-up on folklore. There is no right or
wrong way to play anything. In any music, styles are always evolving.
Only in Tambura music do some musicians start playing a new style,
then announce that everyone else is doing it wrong. Remember, we
didn't invent the music we play, we're just lucky enough to play it.
As for split-string trills, it adds an exotic sound to the music. It
was used much more in the past because most groups in the U.S.
had only 4, sometimes 5 players instead of the larger groups now
performing. They had to get all the sound that they could out of
there instruments. Does it fit? I let the musician doing it decide that.

Perica

[Clive]

Perica,

Folklore is a big part of my life. I simply can't ignore stuff. Much like a new worker is taught on the job training to a do a job a certain way, I was taught folklore by many people who's credentials do not even need to be mentioned.

Mark Spisic
Sinisa Leopold
Bozo Potocnik

When people who have dedicated their professional lives to music (not just folklore, but all aspects). It's worthwhile to hear what they have to say. The teachings they provide are authentic.

The same can be said about dancers. Once again i'll refer to croatian folklore since it's what i know best. You guys speak of styles that are evolving in music. We'll look at dance. You dont see anyone in Croatian folklore doing a 2 step dance as you would see at a dance/banquet even though it's a style we've adopoted and use. It's not folklore. No, croatian regions have their specific dance steps and posture and stuff like that. Folklore music is the same way. Again there are many people who can take the dance topic to a further extent but since this is tamburaland we'll focus on tambura.

Like I said, from a folklore standpoint I teach what I have been taught and what I have learned over the years. From a non-folklore standpoint I have a seperate style when it comes to tambura. I have nothing against people changing their style, it's great more power to you. But folklore is our heritage, our traditions, we must keep it as pure as possible. I dont know how everyone feels about their respective cultures, but mine means a lot to me.

[perica]

clive,

Wish somebody would teach me. KUTGW.


Perica

[George Medakovich]

You're probably thinking of Ray Ranic, an amazing musician who I had the
honor of playing with many years ago. He plays in the Balkan Serenaders now
(Tilly Klaich's old band). He has an interesting personal story and has written
a lot about Western New York tamburitza on his web site:
http://www.thebalkanlion.com

George

[morovich]

Basses playing offbeats....

You have to remember that tambura orchestra music is a relatively new addition to Croatian folklore, (mid 1800’s) before that, generally speaking, most of the music was provided by various wind instruments (gajde, mih, flutes, and a few others with drumming and of course samice tambure). In some places tambura orchestra didn’t take hold in the folklore at all.

When tambura appeared, most of the syncopation in the music that was provided by the drums (some still can be found) or in the rhythm of the feet (when there wasn't a rhythm instrument). Much of that went away when the bass entered the scene because the bass player was usually instructed to play "on beats". Since the farkas basses were a little more difficult to play, and were less versatile, the down beat became a primary job for the bass. This was a time too, when microtones started to disappear from Croatian folklore traditions. Instruments and singers were "tuned" to standard western tempered scales. Thankfully, not all of the old tunings were erased.

New tambura arrangements like what Sinisa Leopold, Zeljko Brajdic, Zlatko Potocnik, Tomislav Uhlik, Marijan Makar, Julije Njikos and others (things you are calling folklore) have more flexibility since these arrangers are pushing the envelope in what they are writing for tambura using more sophisticated musical techniques.

So yes, Dave, you are right, it is perfectly fine for a berda to play some off beats or syncopated rhythms and more complicated bass lines since the 1. the instrument changed (Srijemska berda has now four tones instead of two) and 2. the instrumental and vocal arrangements and choreographies for performance are becoming more sophisticated.

Clive you are right, the village music (Izvorna tradicija) has less rhythmic syncopation in the bass playing. But let's not confuse the two styles....they are very different.

[Tominellay]

Interesting thread...

George likes this particular ornament (split string) and uses it deliberately and often.
Clive likes this ornament, uses it occasionally but avoids it in certain contexts.
Morovich finds this ornament is overused.

[Clive]

Good explanation Morovich

but i would just like to clarify for all that the composer's and arrangers you listed do not focus only on folklore. They compose modern music as well. When i refered to them it was in the folklore context and refering to their folklore arrangements.

[George Medakovich]

How would you define "folkloric"? Coming from a mixed background I
find myself pretty ignorant of the specifics (even more so now than
20 years ago). In what situations would it be appropriate to play in a
folkloric style? I have heard definitions of so-called authentic styles of
playing that seem to be constrained in time and place, so can folkloric
playing be forward-looking as well as preserving of our culture, or do
you hold a definition that accomodates diverse cultural influences?

Being pretty much ignorant of the specifics, I would have to say that I
consider myself to be "folk", i.e. what I play defines in part the folklore
of the community where I reside. How does this differ from the perspective
of a musician playing, presumably unselfconsciously, in a folkloric style
as you would define it?

Also, an interesting comment that tamburitza did not exist prior to the emergence
of the 19th century tamburitza tradition. I thought the tamburitza tradition
was the result of efforts to standardize the stringed instruments and styles existing prior to and after that time. Not so?

George

[horsovec]

I think you guys WAY misunderstood me. I was just saying that the bass can hit on more than just the one and the two or the one and the three (in 4/4). I agree that if in a given measure, it's only hitting on the off-beats, then that's bulla, but I would think that it would be allowed to hit all the beats in a measure, the ons and offs, in succession in a folklore piece, right?

[Clive]

yes Dave you are correct. Arrangements from Slavonija and Baranja it would be possible to see in a 2/4 piece, the bas could do a run in 8th notes and cover both on and off beats. More common in 2/4 time is a quarter note and 2 8th notes or just 2 quarter notes (on beats). But yes it's common.

A good example of onbeats is Medimurje. One particular song "Cip Cardas" (pronounced Cheap Cardas). The Kontra and Bas play on every single beat on beat throughout the entire song (like a march). So I guess both sides of the spectrum can be seen. But the offbeats aren't as prevalent as onbeats.

good topic :D

[Clive]

How would you define "folkloric"? Coming from a mixed background I
find myself pretty ignorant of the specifics (even more so now than
20 years ago). In what situations would it be appropriate to play in a
folkloric style? I have heard definitions of so-called authentic styles of
playing that seem to be constrained in time and place, so can folkloric
playing be forward-looking as well as preserving of our culture, or do
you hold a definition that accomodates diverse cultural influences?

Being pretty much ignorant of the specifics, I would have to say that I
consider myself to be "folk", i.e. what I play defines in part the folklore
of the community where I reside. How does this differ from the perspective
of a musician playing, presumably unselfconsciously, in a folkloric style
as you would define it?

Also, an interesting comment that tamburitza did not exist prior to the emergence
of the 19th century tamburitza tradition. I thought the tamburitza tradition
was the result of efforts to standardize the stringed instruments and styles existing prior to and after that time. Not so?

George


George, I see your position on this topic. When i refer to folkore i'm refering to the traditional dances and songs of Croatian Cultures (of any culture that is). So it'd be talking about a region in a country and the traditions they had and still have. These traditions are going way back, more than 100 years (sorry if my dates are wrong). So when i refer to folklor, i'm refering to the heritage history of a culture. Many songs might be croatian but that doesn't mean they're folklore.

The song "Putna" is folkore, there's a history to it. During weddings, svirci would follow a newly wed couple and play the song putna. This is used in choreographies from various regions in croatia.

Then there are some hardcore folklore songs that can be found in almost every region. Songs such as "Ja sam Sirota" might be called "Sirota sam ja" in another region. I must have seen at least 6 or 7 version of the same song from different regions.

Now refering to "what I play defines in part the folklore
of the community where I reside."

If i understand this you play music that is folklore to people in the community. You play songs that are from their area of birth? So if Slavonac asks you to play "Sve bi dao da me ona voli" it would be from a musical standpoint a song of slavonija. But it would not be considered traditional folklore. I might be grasping your point the wrong way. Please correct me if I am.

As for the history of the tambura..it was an evolution. Every stringed instrument was an evoultion of the Lute which originated from Iran. As it spread to different cultures, it was adapted to suit their needs. The tambura was just another evolution (in my opinion) from the samica, danguba, sargija. Even the tambura has taken some evolution within itself. There have been many tuning systems used (Farkas, Jankovic, Srijemski). Each have improved the tambura. If anyone else could shed some more light on this that'd be great.

Also if Zeljko Jergan still checks the forum, he could give you an indepth explanation of folklore as it pertains to ethnic traditions and heritage.

[morovich]

Good explanation Morovich

but i would just like to clarify for all that the composer's and arrangers you listed do not focus only on folklore. They compose modern music as well. When i refered to them it was in the folklore context and refering to their folklore arrangements.

Exactly my point, which is why I suggested what they are doing is NOT folklore, but compositions based on folklore and we should not confuse the two. Take for instance Ladarke which is a musical composition based on a folk tradition, but is not folklore, although some would like to think that it is.

[perica]

Clive,

What do you do if someone from Bosna asks for a song from Lika?


Perica

[The Curious Tamburas]

My guess is that Clive plays a song from Lika, if he knows one. If not, Tominellay could sure noodle out a tune from Bosna.

What's your point, Perica?

Clive's point, (if I'm right) is that there is no such thing as a split string trill in Croatian folklore. He didn't say you couldn't play it. He just said that it would not be true to Croatian folklore tradition, and claims to have studied it with experts like Leopold and Ivancan.

Believe me, I've had plenty of discussions with, and listened to lectures from, the likes of Djeri G. and Zeljko J. about whether arrangments of songs were "correct" according to the "tradition".

I politely acknowledged that I understood them and then did what I wanted to, absent a real reason to preserve the "original".

I was interested in entertainment, not the strict preservation of the folklore.

Regarding the term, "split string trill", I don't think that it exists anywhere but in this thread. First of all, not many instruments have double strings (sure, tamburas, mandolins, bouzouki, maybe a domra), and if you're using a split string to simulate a trill, then you're either lazy or aren't very proficient on the instrument. I've basically just described myself also, so don't be too insulted. But, I don't use it anyway.

My point is that you can play what you want. I don't think that Leopold or Ivancan or some 100 year old guy from Lika is coming to see you play anyway. Do You?

[perica]

TCT,

My point is that some Tamburasi talk about the "right" or "wrong"
way our music should be played. If we all followed these so-called
"rules", we would all sound the same. Instead, let's let the listeners
decide what is "good" or "bad". When I hear many of the young groups
play, I don't know any of the songs they play. How am I supposed
to know if it's "right" or not?


Perica

[mac]

This is a very interesting thread! All of you bring up some great points. Maybe I’m missing the point, but you seem to be missing an important part of music and music interpretation! Where is the self expression, the freedom, the vehicle for growth, the creativity? It is important to know right from wrong. It is equally important to be creative. You can argue forever as to the way a song is played or interpreted. I really don’t think that the people that wrote these songs played them the same way every time!

We all play to show others what we can do. Look at the way you present a song and how you are pleased when you find a chord, riff or a lick that you tried that nobody else has played before! You do this because you have played that song soooo many times you are bored with it and you are trying to make it more exciting for you to play and something different for the listener. If we do not show creativity, expression or demonstrate the freedom to play as we feel, then all the music will always sound the same. It would be boring. What do you think Hank Williams SR. would say about the way country western music has evolved to the sound it is today? Look at all the great musicians that play country music and the influences they bring from other genre’s that have change country music forever. For the young people who have never heard of Hand Williams they only know the country music they hear today and to them that is country music. Look at Rock and Roll. How many different styles of rock n roll are there? In the beginning there was one! How simple the chord structure was. Most of those songs only had 3 chords! Chuck Berry made millions on 3 chord songs!! Thank god somebody started getting creativity. Remember when Rock and rock started to evolve from the way Elvis played and sung it, through the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Chicago, Tower of Power then into hard rock, acid rock, punk rock, grunge rock and the list goes on. Who knows what rock and roll is today!! Anybody who listens or plays these genres could have the same arguments about how to play country, rock, jazz or blues, even though I think blues stays pretty pure to it’s original from and even it has branch out some. Do you think Paul McCartney or the Rolling Stones play and write like they did 30 years ago? Then there are the gypsies! A whole other topic!

I think it is important for an audience to know and hear how the songs are meant to be played but it is also important to show your creative, self expression and how you present a song. I don’t know if the split string trill is right or wrong but if I knew how to do it, I would use it in good taste!!

[perica]

Mac,


Hear, Hear! Well put. The first person that walks up and tells
me that I'm playing a song wrong, will soon experience the feeling
of Grovers going up his guza.


Perica

[Djuroslav]

Since I don't believe that ANY of us want ANYTHING up our guzas (let alone 'Grovers') I think you had better tell us who, in fact your are, Perica - so that we don't make the ill-fated mistake of telling YOU that you're playing something wrong... :eek:

[perica]

Djuroslav,

Hi George! Instead of me giving my name, I think it's a much better
idea to not tell anyone the "correct" way to play music. There are many
musicians and bands that I do not like. I would never go up to them and
correct them. I have no right to do that. Instead, I just walk away.
There are many different styles when it comes to Tambura. No one is
better than the other. When I attend any music festival, I hear the
groups I like, and ignore the rest. Never been a problem.


Perica

[Tominellay]

Back in the day, there was the Biser Tamburitza Orchestra hereinellay, and I always enjoyed listening to them play...The late Steve "Lefty" Cvetican was the bugarija player, and he used to play these big, jazzy chords up and down the neck of his bug. He was a hoot! The late George Rudar played bass with Biser...The gents out front were the great Joe Matacic on prim, and Chuck Sabolic on the celo. Joe and Chuck are retired now, and in their eighties...
Anyhow, these guys used to argue about songs after they'd played them, and I remember the conversations going something like this:

Chuck: "That's not the way this song goes."
Joe: "We always played it this way."
Chuck: "No, we never played it like that, that's not how you play it."
Joe: "Whaddaya mean? I played for years with Dave Zupkovich, and this is how we played it!"
Chuck: "Well, I've heard of Dave Zupkovich, but I've never heard of you!"

[The Curious Tamburas]

Mac & Perica

I’ve still got a point or two to make about your points. I’ll tell you a little story.

A long time ago when I was in music school, I took a counterpoint class or two. At the beginning of each class we would hand in our assignments. We were required to put our names on the back of each assignment. The professor would sit at the piano – we didn’t have a harpsichord available – and play the counterpoint that we had written. As he played each counterpoint assignment, many times he would “take off” into a Chopin Piano Concerto or a Mozart Sonata, much to the amazement and amusement of the class. There was always one particular counterpoint composition that he would play through exactly as written, breath deeply as if he was capturing the fragrance of the beauty of it and then look at the class with a broad smile and say, “That, class, is impeccable counterpoint.”

You see, from the academic standpoint, musical counterpoint is considered to be a discipline – which involves following many rules. The composer was bound by those rules and if, by chance or by design, he violated those rules, his counterpoint was judged to be inferior or worse yet sacrilegious.

The professor’s point was that, although many of the assignments were commendable attempts to compose counterpoint and pleasing to the modern ear, they were rife with broken rules and as he put it “fractured counterpoint”.

By the way, a widely accepted definition of “folklore” is: the traditional beliefs, myths, tales, and practices of a people, transmitted orally, and the comparative study of folk knowledge and culture.

The discussion about which rules need to be followed when presenting folklore is an academic one, much like learning the discipline of counterpoint, because it is, for the most part, not very relevant to the modern ear, and just as my professor refused to allow the rules of counterpoint to be broken, some folklorists refuse to allow the “rules” of folklore traditions to be broken and still consider it folklore. I respect those folklorists, just as I respected my counterpoint professor. I understand the point they make about presenting the teachings/traditions in the purest unadulterated form and thereby preserving the lore.

The other point I feel compelled to make revolves around the “tradition”. Folklorists of “ancient traditions” primarily rely on what they have learned from their contemporaries as to what those “traditions” were. We all know that stories change and evolve with each different “telling”, which is much different than the situation where the “story” is reduced to writing. Once something is written, then for the most part, it quits evolving – therefore, we know what the tradition is thought to have been at the time it was reduced to writing, but we really don’t know what the “original” tradition was.

And remember, not all tradition was good. The “tradition” of watching gladiators fight to the death – not something that I feel needed to be preserved.

[George Medakovich]

Well, my wife used to be a folklorist. She had a couple of stories of fellow
folklorists freaking out at the prospect of traditional music being played by
a boom-zit band. Many folklorists relish the mix.

As far as split-string being an easier ornament, I will have to say that I could
perform what you might call a "traditional" ornament first and only found out
about split-string ornamentation by watching the local band like a hawk and
trying to figure out what it was that the lead player (Vlad Popovich in this case)
was doing that sounded so sweet. Once I figured it out, and even after I had
it demonstrated for me a number a times, it still took considerable effort for me
to acquire some facility at it. And like all my other technique, it's still a work in
progress. Just lame, I guess.

By the way, accordian players do something similar in the various SE European
styles. Even classical musicians have managed to keep this topic open.

Thanks for a wonderful discussion! You have nothing to fear, I am grumpy
but harmless!

George Medakovich

[jaygriz]

As The Curious Tamburas said:

"…. a widely accepted definition of “folklore” is: the traditional beliefs, myths, tales, and practices of a people, transmitted orally, and the comparative study of folk knowledge and culture."

However, there are a few widely accepted definitions of “a people”:

1. A body of persons living in the same country under one national government; a nationality.

In this view we draw “national” divisions between “folklores.” In so much as Sinisa Leopold, Bozo Potocnik might say that splitting the strings is not an authentic practice in “Croatian folklore,” they are justified to draw that line. Academic types are inclined to draw such concrete “boundaries” when they speak of their discipline.

2. A body of persons sharing a common religion, culture, language, or inherited condition of life.

This definition allows for a more flexible distinction. Given this view, we can consider more than the national (or even geographic) bonds between “a people.” For instance, you could include the musical ideas of an American-born Croatian musician’s style under the umbrella of “Croatian Folklore.” This is the paradigm by which the Roma define their folklore.

3. Persons with regard to their residence, class, profession, or group: city people.

Do rural musicians play the same as city musicians within the borders of a given country. How about 50 years ago. I would think there was more of a difference then.

On "splitting":

If you’re going to Reno for the Extravaganza, remember this: In Blackjack, always split a pair of aces. You’ll increase your bet. But you’re better off. That’s not an opinion, it’s mathematics.

[perica]

TCT,

You are correct. All music music should follow the basic rules of
musical theory. But, that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Unfortunately, the Croatians and the Serbs did not have a Zoltan
Kodaly travelling from village to village recording music from the old-
timers. Many of our songs were never documented by the author.
Instead, they were passed-on from father to son, just like many other
forms of ethnic music.
The thing that I don't understand, is that how anyone can tell
everyone else how to play our music. Music does change with time.
This has happened in every type of ethnic music. It is only with
Tambura music that someone(in their 20's) can inform all the other
Tamburasi that they are playing it "wrong".
I am sorry if this offends anyone, but this is how I feel. I started
playing many years ago. Before Vojvodina tuning. Before "black"
Tamburas. I remember going to the Rafters and barely being able to
get in the door. No one every thought about criticizing the band
that was playing. They played, and we listened.
So, when you play, I'll shut up and listen. But, when I play, you
shut up and listen.


Perica

[The Curious Tamburas]

Perica,

You must have misunderstood. First of all, the "composers" of folklore had no knowledge or understanding of classical music theory. They didn't "tell" their stories with any of the concepts of music theory in mind.

Basically, they were expressing themselves in a fashion that they believed would be more easily remembered because their story could be related by music. Although notation was available, these folk composers were not educated in any of the systems and therefore, the melodies had to be passed down from generation to generation. As most scientists recognize, there is a degradation of the original from "generation to generation"; hence, a 4th generation reproduction of anything has lost at least something from the original, if you're trying to preserve the original.

I don't intend to try to make a point that changing the original might not result in a "better" product. Of course, inovation almost always translates to improvement. BUT, if you are the folklorist, and your primary concern is preserving the original, then every change represents a degradation of the original.

If the split string did not exist in Croatian folklore, so be it. In my estimation, (and obviously yours) who cares if it is not true to the original folklore. The point I was making in the second part of my last post was that I don't think anyone really knows what the original was, because before it was written down then it probably underwent changes along the way and therefore underwent that "generational degradation". Also, my point was that the discussion is academic, so who cares unless you're a folklorist, or trying to present folklore. For the most part, tambura bands aren't playing folklore anymore, they're playing music composed in the folk idiom, so unless you're in a folklore group, your audience isn't expecting folklore.

Hey, if you want to play the "split string trill" on every note in the song, go ahead (except, someone might think that your G strings are just out of tune). Leopold, Potocnik, Ivancan, Cossetto and Clive would surely scoff at you (I'd just snicker a little), but if you've got an audience that likes that style, play on.

My question is, what do you care? There are plenty of people who absolutely despise the style of music that I play, but I also know that there are a lot of people out there who love my music, so I don't care. I don't care that it's not folklore and I don't care if there are people out there who recognize that when I play folklore, I'm not being true to the original.

By the way, folklorist try to explain folklore in terms of classical music theory only as a means to provide for the acedemic discussion of it.

Anyway, I do enjoy the challenge of trying to argue both sides of the issue in the same post. It's good practice for my real job.

[Clive]

Perica. I'd just like to make it clear that I have never criticized any band on how they play. I will keep my opinions to myself. Everyone has the right to play music how they see fit. Just like I play my music the way I see fit. And TCT made a great point. Many bands these days do not play folklore music but music that was composed to mimic it. I have yet to see a tambura band perform a single folk song at any zabava I go to. I dont know what the musical repetoire of any given band is but chances are if I went up there and requested them to play a traditional folklore song like "Derite se Cisme Moje" from Gradiste...or Marice Kolo from Baranja or Presjekacka from Slavonija (that one the might know). But how many of those tunes do members on this forum recognize? these are the type of folklore music tunes i speak of.

If you could shed some light on the folklore songs you play or listen to i'd love to talk about it. As I said many times before, everyone has their own style and they can play as they want. Non-folkloric music is evolving all the time. For example, i've heard about 4 different recordings of the tune "Sve Bih Dao Da Me Ona Voli"

It has evolved so quickly that each band plays it differently. You can listen to Mladi Sest version, or Otrov's version, or Dukati's version and they're all different. Evolution...it's only natural.

But coming back to the topic of Classical music. I dont believe i've seen any classical song that has been arranged. If i'm not mistaken they all list the composer and thats it, no arranger since the music is not altered. Correct me if i'm wrong though but playing 8 years of classical piano i never noticed 2 different versions of an original composition. It'd be like taking a composition of Mozart's that was written in D Major and playing it in A because someone wants to "change it up".

It's all about personal preference i guess. What one believes is right or wrong. As i said I will never go up to anyone and say "you're playing this wrong" because A. unless its festival, it's unlikely that the music is folklore and b. it's not my business to try to change other people's thinking. I'm just offering up an opinion.

[circa_flex]

so for a split-string trill is it on the double string (the highest) or a mix of two strings for example a e and a Fis

[George Medakovich]

Well, on the classical piano stuff you are definitely off the mark if you are saying
that the classical masterpieces exist in singular form. If that were the case then
classical musicians wouldn't get all worked up about which version of "the text"
you were using - just like with the Bible. There are also plenty of examples of
transcriptions for different instruments, and not just those done by the composers
themselves. There are also lots of examples of alternate versions of what were
once considered improvisational passages, now cemented into text.

Can a folk musician be literate? If not, would it invalidate any music we now
consider "folk" if it were to turn out that the originator was literate?
That's assuming that there was an "originator" and that the piece we are
considering is a single composition with a well-defined form. What if the
composition was different each time it was played, a little or a lot? What if
the composition started out as an imitation of some literate piece and
accreted all kinds of bottle caps and beads until it no longer represented
the original? Is literate music transmitted orally folk (I'm thinking about
some church music here)?

The bands I've played with had some genuine folk songs in their repertoire,
according to a few people whose opinions I trust, but they were probably
performed in a very un-folklore-like way, meaning, I guess, that they didn't
sound anything like they would have in the village. But I'm guessing that most
of those songs were used in conjunction with instruments that did not include a bass and bugarija. Wish I knew more, but there are many things like
that in my life and I must get on with it. I admire the scholarship of folks like Clive,
it may inspire me to acquire some facility with Serbo-Croation (or whatever it's
called now) so that I can get closer to the literature. There were a lot of
people who catalogued our music, as I am sure a number of you could
point out. Two I have heard of who did so were Bela Bartok and, I believe,
Frank Lord (right first name?). Those are just two who are well know to
laypeople like myself, but I know there were many others.

So how old is split string ornamentation and where did it originate? Does anyone
have any idea or opinion?

George M.

[Clive]

George, just to clarify. There is no serbo-croatian anymore. Granted they do share some similarity but pertaining to folklore as well as everything else, they are two seperate nationalities. I know there are books about croatian culture, traditions and music. I'm sure that there are also books that pertain to serbian culture, traditions and music.

Yes many have catalogued our music. I know that HRT orchestra archives are pretty impressive. Sinisa was telling us at seminars last year how they have something like 10,000 seperate pieces of music and about 3,000 of it are full orchestra arrangements/compositions. It's quite impressive what people can amass. I'm sure that the Tamburitzans collection of music is pretty impressive as well. I've been to TAB a few times and seen all the stuff they have there and it's incredible.

As for the origination of split string...I have no clue where it started. I'll have to go over some of my old recordings of Pajo Kolaric and see if it's in there at all.

[George Medakovich]

Thanks, Clive. It will be interesting to see if you come up with anything.

[circa_flex]

so Clive exactly what is an example(note wise) of a split string trill.

[Clive]

circa_flex.

Well the split-string technique that I use is usually a tone a part. So If i'm playing on my prim and I have a double string E. On the bottom string i'd play lets say a B (fret 7) and the other string E string i would play an A (fret 5). Then tremolo both strings together.

split string doesn't necessarily have to be a tone apart, it can be a semi-tone as well. I believe i posted a link to a Janika tune earlier in this thread that shows a great example during the last song after his prim solo. If it's not there i'll post it again.

[ken kosovec]

What did you start here George?:) There is a lot of intellectual discussion and dissection of Tambura playing style happening on these 6 pages. Here is my take on this. Musical styles vary from one region to another. What is intellectually "correct" for one region is incorrect in another. In Vojvodina there are suttle differences in the playing style from Banat, Srijem, and Backa. Also there are different styles prevalent from Slavonija, Podravina, Zagorje, Dalmacija, etc. This is folk music even though it may not be in its purest form for the acedemics. ( I say that respectfully)
Now we get to America. In earliar times, when European recordings and access to them were very limited, Tambura bands were formed by early immigrants in cities in across America where they developed their own sound and style. This style was usually taught by a mentor/leader/player by what he remembered from the old country. The big question here is 1) What he remembered? and 2) how good of a musician /teacher he was. That is how sometimes, folk songs changed in America from the original form. Tambura bands from different cities at that time, did not have as much opportunity to interact musically with each other, so they kept their own distinct style/sound. Cities such as New York, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Youngstown, Akron, Cleveland, Detroit, St. Louis, Chicago etc. all had a sound/style that was not generic but sort of unique to their own city. I would call this AMERICAN Tambura folk music.
Much later came the invasion of BLACK Tamburas (as George calls them):) This was probably due to a large extent from the recordings of the Janika Balaz orchestra with Zvonko Bogdan that began to be released in the early 70's. This sound became the new benchmark for many musicians and many of them started to "change over" to A Braches, horn picks, etc. to try to replicate that sound. Later in the 90's many Tambura bands from Croatia emerged with recordings, further influencing Tambura playing style in America, for the new young generation of Tambura players.
It is interesting to note that the famous Janika Balaz orchestra was intriged with the sound of the Popovich brothers when they appeared with them in Washington D.C. around 1975. They had never heard a sound like that, yet they still appreciated a 'different" style.
As far as what is the right or wrong way to play, is an opinion for most but more important to others. Laku Noc

[Pavle]

kenko, great reply. just enough to end this!!! you and i must have gone to different schools together!

[ken kosovec]

;) Good Morning,

In all of my rambling, I did not address CURIOUS George's (not to be confused with The CURIOUS Tamburas) original post relating to "split string trill".

What I seem to remember of this, is that there were a few fine players in America who "ornamented" their style with this technique. It was definitely a strong trademark of the Buffalo N.Y. musicians sound during my days. But, did it begin there??
In Detroit, legendary Steve Pavlekovic used this sparingly in his playing style. I also picked up a little of this style from hearing it here in Detroit. Peter also does this sparingly. But Steve lived in Youngstown Ohio before moving to Detroit where he played with Djoko Dokich and others. So, did he pick that style up there, or did he bring that style from memories from European players?
. In Pittsburgh, Joe Grcevic also used some of this style. Jerry, played that way for a while untill he bought BLACK Tamburas and became Djeri. :)
In the village of Alliquippa Pa., there resides an old (April) fool "Beglajt" player who is still trying to split "ONE" of his D strings on his Groeshel bugaria with his axe after reading these posts.
So, I think it all began in all began there......Alliquippa Pa.

[Pavle]

kenko, the older old timers said, steve and george skrbina picked up the split string style while they were both playing with "banat" from new york city. then steve went on to play with the balkan mountain men in new york. so, i figure it all came from voyvodina. as far as splitting on a "beglait" i've never seen it done. looks like i need to get out more!

[Djuroslav]

...I've seen SPITTING on a beglait before... :D

[Pavle]

dj, did i miss spell a word? i guess we've spit a few together in school.
mac; seen you do a polka in a different life!

[circa_flex]

circa_flex.

Well the split-string technique that I use is usually a tone a part. So If i'm playing on my prim and I have a double string E. On the bottom string i'd play lets say a B (fret 7) and the other string E string i would play an A (fret 5). Then tremolo both strings together.

split string doesn't necessarily have to be a tone apart, it can be a semi-tone as well. I believe i posted a link to a Janika tune earlier in this thread that shows a great example during the last song after his prim solo. If it's not there i'll post it again.thanks...but the on trill I ever hear in folklore is in slavonsko kolo the part the prim plays...but when u listen deeply I think its a E and a Fis. Played in A major. So technically its not a split string trill but more of a harmony though it has the effect of a trill

[Tominellay]

Ken makes a good point by identifying what he terms AMERICAN Tambura folk music; for the reasons he has stated above, that particular folk music tradition branched out in America separately from Europe, and in each city almost separately from other cities...
There remain among American tamburasi a number of bands whose music exemplifies the American tambura tradition, rooted in the music of the bands that played in America in the first half of the 20th century. These bands strive to collect and preserve this tradition. Jedinstvo (Phoenix, Arizona) is a good example; their repertoire amazes...and their style is a throwback to the way tambura was played 70 or 80 years ago.

[Clive]

thanks...but the on trill I ever hear in folklore is in slavonsko kolo the part the prim plays...but when u listen deeply I think its a E and a Fis. Played in A major. So technically its not a split string trill but more of a harmony though it has the effect of a trill

Hey Circa. the type of split string trill you speak of is the only type i know. It's not necessarily done in A major, it can be done in any key (provided you play the right notes :D). But anything one plays can be considered harmony provided it fits within the chord structure of the song. If you look at Otrov for example. On their first album they recorded a polka I know as "Hi Ha Ho Ha" i'm not sure if that's the name of it on the album...it's also know as Horvatcanska Polka.

There are many examples of ornamentations used in it. Peter has some awesome runs that tie in melodies, it can be considered an ornamentation too. There are a few examples of Split String in there as well. But there are 2 types of trills. Sometimes a musician will go between E and Fis traditionally with 2 fingers back and fourth for a trill as opposed to splitting the strings. I believe that's the traditional Trill as opposed to split string.

In the end they're all great ornamentations and in the right context can really make a song sound great.

[circa_flex]

thanks...I know it can be done in different keys...I was just saying the notes for the A major key of slavonsko kolo.
Yeah that's what I thought that it would be traditional.